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simple distros, deanmean

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simple distros, deanmean

Postby nadir » Mon Nov 14, 2016 7:26 am

The other days i ran into distros said to be rather simple
Void LInux
and
Sabotage Linux.

I booted Void Linux and had a quick look. I didn't bootstrap Sabotage
(dragora might be of your liking too, iow is also rather simple ).
So i herd u liek mudkip?
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Re: simple distros, deanmean

Postby deanmean » Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:21 am

Yea I am not even sure what I mean by simple anymore...

I think I want a distro where I can do a quick install of a base system and then with a few commands install my favorite apps and be ready to go....or....install a full system and with a few commands remove the crap I don't want. I think I prefer the latter anymore.

I don't guess it matters if I understand what is going on "under the hood" as long as what is under there isn't taking up too many resources, isn't trying to do things I don't want done, or causing me aggravation.

I can near enough turn fedora into an okay system but a few things are tied together a bit too much. I end up with a few things I don't want or I end up not being able to have a few things I do want without stuff that I don't want.

But any distro I have to spend significant time on just to configure/install something is not my cup of tea. I want to burn up an hour browsing pr0n on the web not burn up an hour trying to get a web browser to build/install correctly.

I am starting to think I should just dump computers and use a phone for what little I do. I don't particularly like phone operating systems but I dont much like desktop/laptop operating systems either so whats the difference...

I am intent on not wasting my time trying things out so I realize I have tied my hands in regard to finding something I like so I doubt I will accomplish it.

So what up with you? :mrgreen:
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Re: simple distros, deanmean

Postby figlfdev » Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:50 am

deanmean wrote:Yea I am not even sure what I mean by simple anymore...

I think I want a distro where I can do a quick install of a base system and then with a few commands install my favorite apps and be ready to go....


the problem with gnu/linux (my favorite computing environment) is two-fold:

* too much has to be done manually in reality, even if the box promises more
* automating the manual tasks is too complicated (or gets overcomplicated, which is different.)

packages are overcomplicated, and installing software is a matter of waiting for packages, which only some people can make. (in theory again, anyone can. this does not always happen though.)

in my opinion, the only way you can have an operating system that does everything you want-- including what people tinker it into doing, is to have an operating system that everyone can collaborate on. at least everyone who can do basic scripting.

have a base os, have a huge package repo, and have a community whose main purpose after tech support is to create package-scripts instead of packages.

for example, to install gimp from an apt repo you would say:
sudo apt-get install gimp

but to install the latest gimp available, you would say:
sudo install-gimp-2.8.18

or even:
sudo install-latest-gimp

this would only work because the community wasnt happy with the version of gimp in the repo, and decided to create a script towards getting the latest gimp working.

until software can write itself, you have to have a community dedicated to making things "just work." if that isnt happening, you have to figure out the incentive and remove the obstacles.

not every script has to work the same way, or even be in the same language. though some level of standardization is probably in order, it could change for some as needed.
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Re: simple distros, deanmean

Postby thwak » Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:32 am

figlfdev wrote:packages are overcomplicated, and installing software is a matter of waiting for packages, which only some people can make. (in theory again, anyone can. this does not always happen though.)

in my opinion, the only way you can have an operating system that does everything you want-- including what people tinker it into doing, is to have an operating system that everyone can collaborate on. at least everyone who can do basic scripting.

Amen. Although debian culture has spurned the notion of using PPAs, that (or something similar) is the way forward. Software development is happening way too fast for the small cadre of overworked package maintainers to keep abreast of incessant the changes. Further, it's a disservice to withhold fixes n improvements from users until version X.2.4.14, of program Y, for acitecture Z (arm::32-bit) rises through the queue of all the myriad competing packages requiring attention.

I watched a 45min video of Mr. Shuttleworth explaining Ubuntu Snappy, filmed during an early 2016 stage presentation,
"Open Source in the World of App Stores" (SCaLE 14x symposium) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_bOIWqglnY
which underscores this point. However, he's proffering a specific "stack" er mechanism (Snappy, aka snapcraft, aka Snappy Ubuntu Core). I'm likely to avoid embracing that -- due to worry of lock-in -- same as steering clear of systemd. I'm in agreement with his premise, that distros need to concentrate on providing/maintaining a core; app installs should be (increasingly so, MUST be) a contract between individual app project authors/teams and individual users. Distro-maintained repos should only be storing/serving in-house developed software and, possibly, archives of no-longer-maintained software or titles which are not sufficiently hosted elsewhere.

The latter part figlfdev mentioned, about scripting, is blossoming... but not among users of the old-school distros. The exciting stuff is happening among/between raspPI users, NextCloud users, Kodi (or whatever its project name is this month) users ~~ small, agile, task-centric usergroups. I can recall when "murga-linux.com/puppy/" was so busy that you (me) couldn't find time to read all the new posts each day. Nowadays, not "crickets" but pales in comparison to (for instance) the daily activity at "forum.xda-developers.com".
The do-ers have moved on; the old-school, non-agile, decision-by-elites, distros will be hard-pressed to woo them back.
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Re: simple distros, deanmean

Postby figlfdev » Sat Dec 24, 2016 11:40 am

[quote="thwak"]Although debian culture has spurned the notion of using PPAs, that (or something similar) is the way forward.


its too easy to shoot down something that ubuntu does first-- im happy to separate the methods from the motives, but i dont trust shuttleworth and ppa seems kind of bloated and overcomplicated (on top of something bloated and overcomplicated.)

im happy to have all of debians ****-retentive management on key packages. on the other end of the spectrum, fig os supports petget packages. by no means do i think petget is ideal, but thats not the point-- if i took petget and shoved it through several corporate boardrooms and workgroups, i would probably end up with ppa.

no one has to use the petget feature, its one of the many things that can be removed from fig os simply by text-search on the script that puts it together and deleting the offending few lines, but if you want to make a package for it its so trivial that countless people you might consider plebs have already done so. and its got wayyyyyy less overhead than apt.

Software development is happening way too fast for the small cadre of overworked package maintainers to keep abreast of incessant the changes.


this. and in situations where the pointy-haired-debian-maintainers decided against things like mate, a "plan b" package solution is nearly called for. though thats not where any of this is coming from.

snappy really doesnt float my boat at all, but i think some boat-rocking is necessary these days. s5d may be considered in that category, but i think the worst thing about it is that it makes a boat more difficult to rock (and yet easier to sink, even after all these years of promises.)

I'm in agreement with his premise, that distros need to concentrate on providing/maintaining a core; app installs should be (increasingly so, MUST be) a contract between individual app project authors/teams and individual users.


im happy to be more conservative than that. but i think its clear (or at least you and i agree) that moving in that direction or at least facilitating the option in a broad fashion is forward-thinking.

Distro-maintained repos should only be storing/serving in-house developed software and, possibly, archives of no-longer-maintained software or titles which are not sufficiently hosted elsewhere.


i love the second part, but again im happy to be a little more conservative on the first part.

but not among users of the old-school distros. The exciting stuff is happening among/between raspPI users, NextCloud users, Kodi (or whatever its project name is this month) users _X[ Y[K\X[X\\ܛ\˖][NYB KH\\۝\\HYK][NYRH[X[[ ][]\K[[^ K\Kɜ][\\H][H
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Re: simple distros, deanmean

Postby nadir » Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:38 pm

Everything fine here, Dean.
Age hits me like a sledgehammer every other day, but else all is goot

From what you say Salix sounds like a good option. pron out of the box, more or less :-)
Perhaps even Slackware (make sure to install sbotools from slackbuilds, and installing removing apps will be a piece of cake.
Perhaps look at dragora (there can be much be said why it would not suits anyones needs, but the small community might be of *your taste. kelsoo and me being one of the few :-) ).

As i got an old iMac G5, i installed debian on it (gentoo kernel compiling: no thanks, FreeBSD would be a good option). Also installed kFreeBSD on an old laptop, as i ran out of working CD's and only had that one. Use it only to backup stuff though, boot it once a week.

And i am back to shell-scripting, now posix, it's fun and works ok (in #bash i get all the bashing you could dream of, but for an idiot it's enough fun).

Glad to hear of you, plug Santa the thumb in the ***, if you feel like it, and enjoy yourself.
So i herd u liek mudkip?
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Re: simple distros, deanmean

Postby deanmean » Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:31 pm

Age hits me like a sledgehammer every other day, but else all is goot
well at least it is only every other day :D

...Salix...Slackware...

I dont think it matters anymore. I only do a few things on the computer anyway. I probably peck on my phone more than my computer nowadays.

I am back to working on the house and getting ready for yard/garden work. I guess that is fun...

enjoy yourself
you too
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Re: simple distros, deanmean

Postby deanmean » Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:08 pm

packages are overcomplicated, and installing software is a matter of waiting for packages, which only some people can make. (in theory again, anyone can. this does not always happen though.)

Anymore I think I consider the only relevant package to be the latest package and the manpower to be sure that package works well with the rest of the system and in my (very limited ) recent experience fedora seems to do pretty good in that regard.


in my opinion, the only way you can have an operating system that does everything

i want is to do all the work myself....which I cant.... :D so I am taking the other path of accepting what someone else is offering and living with it if I can...right now the main one I accept is google...win10 for a few things...fedora if I am trying linux...

why walk to my computer, flick it on, click this and that, try to figure out something, input my zip code, do this and that when i could just say "ok google what is the weather today"
:lol:
for fsck sake i am lazy when it comes to technology nowadays but then again isnt that the actual purpose of technology anyway


NOT BASHING REFRACTA OR ANY OTHER DISTRO - I am simply talking about where I am at in regard to technology, how I want things, I think all distros should be what the developer(s) want to be and users should find the one that interests them rather than a distro trying to change to fit the users.


this would only work because the community wasnt happy with the version of gimp in the repo, and decided to create a script towards getting the latest gimp working.

I don't like community software maintenance. I am never happy with the choices someone else makes in regards to the package. Often they all assume you have XYZ so now feature A is broke because you do not. etc etc etc... If everyone had the same base system but then who decides the base...etc...its all a big mess..I dont think there is any way to de-mess-ify it...just pick the mess you like best and live with it...it is getting more and more complex and has been as long as I can remember so I think that means more and more messier rather than less... Debian use to offer a pretty generic package that didn't assume much but that doesn't seem to be possible anymore with systemd...even before systemd it started going that way with hal and dbus and the like anyway...so I am not blaming systemd...

I don't recall simple since gnome 1.0 and to be honest that may not have been as simple as it seemed either. Then again I recall spending hours...days...getting X to work properly with my intel video card and being happy that libranet offered me a chance at figuring it all out by walking me thru compiling a kernel that has support built in for it. Not sure I would go back to doing that. So I either embrace "progress" or ..... well I aint compiling no kernel....so hello progress...whether I like it or not....

I have no idea what my point was....longest I been on a laptop in forever.... gotta get back to android where I can tell it what I want rather than clicking and typing.... :D
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Re: simple distros, deanmean

Postby FOSSuser » Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:59 pm

If you are looking for an alternate distro - I highly recommend AntiX, been using it ever since #! (crunchbang) was no longer being maintained, several years now. Great distro, great forum, systemd free, great people.
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Re: simple distros, deanmean

Postby nadir » Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:46 pm

deanmean wrote:.its all a big mess..

We can agree on that :-)

During winter i fooled a bit with FreeBSD, which does the job. In general i run Slackware and Dragora now, but i guess i don't care much (i would say: any distro which doesn't come with systemd, but i don't even remember why i didn't want to run systemd at all).
I've also done a bit of bash scripting, which is fun and the distro doesn't matter. Besides that the bash channel is close to what debian forum has been (lack of friendlyness and the advice you get is correct, not some half-baked nonsense of someone trying to "give back").
But now the skate season started, and i don't do much bash scripting anymore.

Glad you are well.

bash like this, not that bad, though it really boils down to
printf "some URL" | ssh remote_host "cat >> browser_links.txt"
to save weblinks and share them over the LAN
Code: Select all
#!/bin/sh
# set -x

# VARIABLES
# TESTS
# FUNCTIONS
# MAIN

#------------------------------------------
# VARIABLES
#------------------------------------------
key=""
ans=""
program="$0"
option=""
remote_host="raspian" # default value, overwrite with -h hostname
filename="Tmp/browser-links" # default value, overwrite with -i filename
message=""

#------------------------------------------
# TESTS
#------------------------------------------
if [ "$#" -lt 1 ]; then
  printf "\n\tUsage: %s [-h remote_host] [-i filename]  message \n" "$program "
  exit 1
fi


#------------------------------------------
# FUNCTIONS
#------------------------------------------

usage () {
  printf "\n\tUsage %s [-h remote_host] [-i filename]  message \n" "$program "
  printf "\tOptional:\n"
  printf "\tEdit the variables remote_host and/or filename instead of using  -h -i \n"
}

ask_add () {
  printf  "You need to add keys?\n"
  read -r  ans
  case "$ans" in
    [Yy]|[Yy]es) return 0;;
    [Nn]|[Nn]o) return 1;;
  esac
}

# function to list and add keys from ~/.ssh
add_keys () {
  for key in ~/.ssh/*rsa; do
    printf "add %s ?\n" "$key"
    read -r ans
    case "$ans" in
      [Yy]|[Yy]es) ssh-add "$key";;
      [Nn]|[Nn]o) continue;;
      *) printf "invalid answer\n"; continue;;
    esac
  done
}


#------------------------------------------
# MAIN 
#------------------------------------------

# options
while :; do
  option="$1"
  case "$option" in
    -i) if [ -z "$2" ]; then
          usage >&2; exit 1
        fi
        filename="$2"
        shift;;
    -r) if [ -z "$2" ]; then
          usage >&2; exit 1
        fi
        remote_host="$2"
        shift;;
    -h) usage; exit 0;;
    --) shift; break;; # end of all options
    -?*) usage  >&2 ; exit 1;;
    *) break;; # default, end of options
  esac
  shift
done

# start ssh-agent and add keys, if necessary
if [ -z "$SSH_AUTH_SOCK" ]; then
  eval "$(ssh-agent -s)"
  add_keys
elif [ -n "$SSH_AUTH_SOCK" ]; then
  if ask_add; then
    add_keys
  fi
fi

# send the message[s]
for message in "$@"; do
  printf "%s\n" "$message" | ssh "$remote_host" "cat >> $filename"
done

http://sprunge.us/QMCZ
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